Bani Israel

tolokminda wrote:
Jika Nuh seorang saja yang selamat, maka tidaklah Tuhan kata dari keturunan yang telah bersama-sama Nuh. Maknanya selain Nuh ada orang lain yang telah bersama-samanya...

tolokminda wrote:...sehingga kaum Nuh itu berkembang biak (sprung) sehingga lahirnya Nabi Musa dari keturunan mereka. Bila disebut keturunan ia tidak semestinya dari kalangan keluarga terdekat saja. Kita tidak tahu di antara Nuh dan Musa berjarak berapa generasi keturunan. Tetapi melalui Al-Quran kita dapat tahu bahawa Musa adalah dari keturunan yang sama dengan mereka yang telah bersama Nuh.

tolokminda wrote:Samalah dengan mengatakan manusia sekarang keturunan Adam - tidak bermakna kita berkakek dengan anak-anak Adam yang telah direkodkan sejarahnya di dalam Al-Quran.

tolokminda wrote:Salam Faried,

Selain itu jika kita lihat kepada transliterasi:

--> 17:3 Thurriyyata man hamalna maAAa noohin innahu kana AAabdan shakooran

Perhatikan perkataan Thurriyatta atau zuriat atau keturunan. Ia merujuk kepada singular. Maknanya hanya seorang keturunan yang dirujuk. Dan dari transliterasi juga kita dapati tidak ada kata "wahai kamu" seperti terjemahan Yusuf Ali.

--> 17:3 (Y. Ali) O ye that are sprung from those whom We carried (in the Ark) with Noah! Verily he was a devotee most grateful.

Roman Transliteration of the Arabic Source

Transliteration
Thurriyyata man hamalna maAAa noohin innahu kana AAabdan shakooran

Generally Accepted Translations of the Meaning

Muhammad Asad
O you descendants of those whom We caused to be borne (in the ark] with Noah! Behold, he was a most grateful servant (of Ours]!"

M. M. Pickthall
(They were) the seed of those whom We carried (in the ship) along with Noah. Lo! he was a grateful slave.

Shakir
The offspring of those whom We bore with Nuh; surely he was a grateful servant.

Yusuf Ali
O ye that are sprung from those whom We carried (in the Ark) with Noah! Verily he was a devotee most grateful.

[Al-Muntakhab]
They were the progeny of those whom We carried in the Ark with Nuh (Noah) who was a thankful worshipper in whose heart reigned piety and gratitude.

[Progressive Muslims]
The progeny of those whom We carried with Noah, he was a thankful servant.

Abdel Haleem
you descendants of those We carried with Noah: he was truly a thankful servant.’

Abdul Majid Daryabadi
O progeny of those whom We bare with Nuh: verily he was a bondman grateful.

Ahmed Ali
Descendants (of) whom We carried/loaded with Noah, that he truly was a thankful/grateful worshipper/slave.

Aisha Bewley
Descendants of those We carried with Nuh. He was a grateful slave.

Ali Ünal
(They were among) the descendants of those whom We carried (in the Ark) with Noah. He surely was a servant greatly thankful.

Ali Quli Qara'i
descendants of those whom We carried [in the ark] with Noah. Indeed he was a grateful servant.

Amatul Rahman Omar
`O You the progeny of those whom We bore (in the Ark) with Noah (to protect them from the deluge)!' He was indeed a grateful servant (of Ours).

Hamid S. Aziz
(They were) The seed of those We carried with Noah (in the ark). Verily, he was a thankful servant!

Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali
Offspring of whomever We carried with Nuh, (Noah) surely he was a constantly thankful bondman.

Muhammad Sarwar
(We made it a guide for) the offspring of those whom We carried in the Ark with Noah, a thankful servant (of God).

Muhammad Taqi Usmani
O you, the progeny of those whom We put on board with NuH. Surely, He was a very grateful servant.

Shabbir Ahmed
They were the descendants of those whom We carried in the ship along with Noah. Behold, he was a most grateful servant of Ours.

Syed Vickar Ahamed
O (you) descendents who have come from those whom We carried (in the Ark) with Nuh (Noah)! Surely he was a true servant, most grateful.

Umm Muhammad (Sahih International)
O descendants of those We carried [in the ship] with Noah. Indeed, he was a grateful servant.

Farook Malik
O you descendants of those whom We caused to be borne [in the ark] with Noah! Behold, he was a most grateful servant [of Ours]!"

Controversial, deprecated, or status undetermined works

Bijan Moeinian
You are off springs of Noah whom I (God) carried on his ship; What a grateful servant of Mine was Noah.

Faridul Haque
The descendants of those whom We boarded along with Nooh; he was indeed a grateful bondman.

Hasan Al-Fatih Qaribullah
(You are) the descendants of those whom We carried (in the Ark) with Noah. He was a truly thankful worshiper. '

Maulana Muhammad Ali
The offspring of those whom We bore with Noah. Surely he was a grateful servant.

Muhammad Ahmed - Samira
O you, the offspring of those We bore (in the ark) with Noah, he was indeed a grateful votary.

Sher Ali
`O ye, the progeny of those whom WE carried in the Ark with Noah.' He indeed was a grateful servant of OURS.

Yusuf Ali (org.)
O ye that are sprung from those whom We carried (in the Ark) with Noah! Verily he was a devotee most grateful.

Rashad Khalifa
They are descendants of those whom we carried with Noah; he was an appreciative servant.

Non-Muslim and/or Orientalist works

Arthur John Arberry
The seed of those We bore with Noah; he was a thankful servant.

Edward Henry Palmer Seed of those we bore with Noah (in the ark)! verily, he was a thankful servant!

George Sale
O posterity of those whom We carried in the ark with Noah: Verily he was a grateful servant.

John Medows Rodwell
O posterity of those whom we bare with

faried wrote:

tolokminda wrote:
Jika Nuh seorang saja yang selamat, maka tidaklah Tuhan kata dari keturunan yang telah bersama-sama Nuh. Maknanya selain Nuh ada orang lain yang telah bersama-samanya...

Orang yang selamat dari banjir adalah Nuh + orang-orang yang bersamanya.

Pemahaman saya, Nuh + orang-orang yang bersamanya adalah kakek dari bani israel,

yaitu

anak-anak israel/bani israel/children of israel berasal dari banyak kakek yang mencakup Nuh dan orang-orang yang bersamanya.

Jadi Bani Israel = anak-cucu Nuh dan orang-orang yang bersamanya.

tolokminda wrote:...sehingga kaum Nuh itu berkembang biak (sprung) sehingga lahirnya Nabi Musa dari keturunan mereka. Bila disebut keturunan ia tidak semestinya dari kalangan keluarga terdekat saja. Kita tidak tahu di antara Nuh dan Musa berjarak berapa generasi keturunan. Tetapi melalui Al-Quran kita dapat tahu bahawa Musa adalah dari keturunan yang sama dengan mereka yang telah bersama Nuh.

Kalimat akan menjadi tidak logis jika banyak kakek (Nuh dan orang-orang yang bersamanya) menghasilkan keturunan satu cucu (Musa).

tolokminda wrote:Samalah dengan mengatakan manusia sekarang keturunan Adam - tidak bermakna kita berkakek dengan anak-anak Adam yang telah direkodkan sejarahnya di dalam Al-Quran.

Manusia berkakek dengan Adam,

jadi

Bani Adam = anak-cucu manusia yang berasal dari Adam.

faried wrote:

tolokminda wrote:Salam Faried,

Selain itu jika kita lihat kepada transliterasi:

--> 17:3 Thurriyyata man hamalna maAAa noohin innahu kana AAabdan shakooran

Perhatikan perkataan Thurriyatta atau zuriat atau keturunan. Ia merujuk kepada singular. Maknanya hanya seorang keturunan yang dirujuk. Dan dari transliterasi juga kita dapati tidak ada kata "wahai kamu" seperti terjemahan Yusuf Ali.

--> 17:3 (Y. Ali) O ye that are sprung from those whom We carried (in the Ark) with Noah! Verily he was a devotee most grateful.

Saya pikir Thurriyatta adalah bermakna jamak/plural sehingga dalam terjemahan Y. Ali menggunakan are, demikian pula banyak terjemahan lainnya.

Roman Transliteration of the Arabic Source

Transliteration
Thurriyyata man hamalna maAAa noohin innahu kana AAabdan shakooran

Generally Accepted Translations of the Meaning

Muhammad Asad
O you descendants of those whom We caused to be borne (in the ark] with Noah! Behold, he was a most grateful servant (of Ours]!"

M. M. Pickthall
(They were) the seed of those whom We carried (in the ship) along with Noah. Lo! he was a grateful slave.

Shakir
The offspring of those whom We bore with Nuh; surely he was a grateful servant.

Yusuf Ali
O ye that are sprung from those whom We carried (in the Ark) with Noah! Verily he was a devotee most grateful.

[Al-Muntakhab]
They were the progeny of those whom We carried in the Ark with Nuh (Noah) who was a thankful worshipper in whose heart reigned piety and gratitude.

[Progressive Muslims]
The progeny of those whom We carried with Noah, he was a thankful servant.

Abdel Haleem
you descendants of those We carried with Noah: he was truly a thankful servant.’

Abdul Majid Daryabadi
O progeny of those whom We bare with Nuh: verily he was a bondman grateful.

Ahmed Ali
Descendants (of) whom We carried/loaded with Noah, that he truly was a thankful/grateful worshipper/slave.

Aisha Bewley
Descendants of those We carried with Nuh. He was a grateful slave.

Ali Ünal
(They were among) the descendants of those whom We carried (in the Ark) with Noah. He surely was a servant greatly thankful.

Ali Quli Qara'i
descendants of those whom We carried [in the ark] with Noah. Indeed he was a grateful servant.

Amatul Rahman Omar
`O You the progeny of those whom We bore (in the Ark) with Noah (to protect them from the deluge)!' He was indeed a grateful servant (of Ours).

Hamid S. Aziz
(They were) The seed of those We carried with Noah (in the ark). Verily, he was a thankful servant!

Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali
Offspring of whomever We carried with Nuh, (Noah) surely he was a constantly thankful bondman.

Muhammad Sarwar
(We made it a guide for) the offspring of those whom We carried in the Ark with Noah, a thankful servant (of God).

Muhammad Taqi Usmani
O you, the progeny of those whom We put on board with NuH. Surely, He was a very grateful servant.

Shabbir Ahmed
They were the descendants of those whom We carried in the ship along with Noah. Behold, he was a most grateful servant of Ours.

Syed Vickar Ahamed
O (you) descendents who have come from those whom We carried (in the Ark) with Nuh (Noah)! Surely he was a true servant, most grateful.

Umm Muhammad (Sahih International)
O descendants of those We carried [in the ship] with Noah. Indeed, he was a grateful servant.

Farook Malik
O you descendants of those whom We caused to be borne [in the ark] with Noah! Behold, he was a most grateful servant [of Ours]!"

Controversial, deprecated, or status undetermined works

Bijan Moeinian
You are off springs of Noah whom I (God) carried on his ship; What a grateful servant of Mine was Noah.

Faridul Haque
The descendants of those whom We boarded along with Nooh; he was indeed a grateful bondman.

Hasan Al-Fatih Qaribullah
(You are) the descendants of those whom We carried (in the Ark) with Noah. He was a truly thankful worshiper. '

Maulana Muhammad Ali
The offspring of those whom We bore with Noah. Surely he was a grateful servant.

Muhammad Ahmed - Samira
O you, the offspring of those We bore (in the ark) with Noah, he was indeed a grateful votary.

Sher Ali
`O ye, the progeny of those whom WE carried in the Ark with Noah.' He indeed was a grateful servant of OURS.

Yusuf Ali (org.)
O ye that are sprung from those whom We carried (in the Ark) with Noah! Verily he was a devotee most grateful.

Rashad Khalifa
They are descendants of those whom we carried with Noah; he was an appreciative servant.

Non-Muslim and/or Orientalist works

Arthur John Arberry
The seed of those We bore with Noah; he was a thankful servant.

Edward Henry Palmer Seed of those we bore with Noah (in the ark)! verily, he was a thankful servant!

George Sale
O posterity of those whom We carried in the ark with Noah: Verily he was a grateful servant.

John Medows Rodwell
O posterity of those whom we bare with

Verse (2:128) - sūrat l-baqarah (The Cow)
Arabic word 6: ... our offspring ...

{رَبَّنَا وَٱجْعَلْنَا مُسْلِمَيْنِ لَكَ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِنَآ أُمَّةً مُّسْلِمَةً لَّكَ وَأَرِنَا مَنَاسِكَنَا وَتُبْ عَلَيْنَآ إِنَّكَ أَنتَ ٱلتَّوَّابُ ٱلرَّحِيمُ}

Sahih International (2:128): Our Lord, and make us Muslims [in submission] to You and from our descendants a Muslim nation [in submission] to You. And show us our rites and accept our repentance. Indeed, You are the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.

Verse (3:34) - sūrat āl ʿim'rān (The Family of Imrān)
Arabic word 1: ... descendents, ...

{ذُرِّيَّةًۢ بَعْضُهَا مِنۢ بَعْضٍ وَٱللَّهُ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ}

Sahih International (3:34): Descendants, some of them from others. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

Verse (4:9) - sūrat l-nisāa (The Women)
Arabic word 7: ... offspring ...

{وَلْيَخْشَ ٱلَّذِينَ لَوْ تَرَكُوا۟ مِنْ خَلْفِهِمْ ذُرِّيَّةً ضِعَٰفًا خَافُوا۟ عَلَيْهِمْ فَلْيَتَّقُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَلْيَقُولُوا۟ قَوْلًا سَدِيدًا}

Sahih International (4:9): And let those [executors and guardians] fear [injustice] as if they [themselves] had left weak offspring behind and feared for them. So let them fear Allah and speak words of appropriate justice.

erse (7:173) - sūrat l-aʿrāf (The Heights)
Arabic word 9: ... descendants ...

{أَوْ تَقُولُوٓا۟ إِنَّمَآ أَشْرَكَ ءَابَآؤُنَا مِن قَبْلُ وَكُنَّا ذُرِّيَّةً مِّنۢ بَعْدِهِمْ أَفَتُهْلِكُنَا بِمَا فَعَلَ ٱلْمُبْطِلُونَ}

Sahih International (7:173): Or [lest] you say, "It was only that our fathers associated [others in worship] with Allah before, and we were but descendants after them. Then would You destroy us for what the falsifiers have done?"

Verse (13:38) - sūrat l-raʿd (The Thunder)
Arabic word 9: ... and offspring. ...

{وَلَقَدْ أَرْسَلْنَا رُسُلًا مِّن قَبْلِكَ وَجَعَلْنَا لَهُمْ أَزْوَٰجًا وَذُرِّيَّةً وَمَا كَانَ لِرَسُولٍ أَن يَأْتِىَ بِـَٔايَةٍ إِلَّا بِإِذْنِ ٱللَّهِ لِكُلِّ أَجَلٍ كِتَابٌ}

Sahih International (13:38): And We have already sent messengers before you and assigned to them wives and descendants. And it was not for a messenger to come with a sign except by permission of Allah. For every term is a decree.

faried wrote:Salam tolokminda,

Berikut beberapa kata thurriyyata yang berarti plural

Verse (2:128) - sūrat l-baqarah (The Cow)
Arabic word 6: ... our offspring ...

{رَبَّنَا وَٱجْعَلْنَا مُسْلِمَيْنِ لَكَ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِنَآ أُمَّةً مُّسْلِمَةً لَّكَ وَأَرِنَا مَنَاسِكَنَا وَتُبْ عَلَيْنَآ إِنَّكَ أَنتَ ٱلتَّوَّابُ ٱلرَّحِيمُ}

Sahih International (2:128): Our Lord, and make us Muslims [in submission] to You and from our descendants a Muslim nation [in submission] to You. And show us our rites and accept our repentance. Indeed, You are the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.

Verse (3:34) - sūrat āl ʿim'rān (The Family of Imrān)
Arabic word 1: ... descendents, ...

{ذُرِّيَّةًۢ بَعْضُهَا مِنۢ بَعْضٍ وَٱللَّهُ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ}

Sahih International (3:34): Descendants, some of them from others. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

Verse (4:9) - sūrat l-nisāa (The Women)
Arabic word 7: ... offspring ...

{وَلْيَخْشَ ٱلَّذِينَ لَوْ تَرَكُوا۟ مِنْ خَلْفِهِمْ ذُرِّيَّةً ضِعَٰفًا خَافُوا۟ عَلَيْهِمْ فَلْيَتَّقُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَلْيَقُولُوا۟ قَوْلًا سَدِيدًا}

Sahih International (4:9): And let those [executors and guardians] fear [injustice] as if they [themselves] had left weak offspring behind and feared for them. So let them fear Allah and speak words of appropriate justice.

erse (7:173) - sūrat l-aʿrāf (The Heights)
Arabic word 9: ... descendants ...

{أَوْ تَقُولُوٓا۟ إِنَّمَآ أَشْرَكَ ءَابَآؤُنَا مِن قَبْلُ وَكُنَّا ذُرِّيَّةً مِّنۢ بَعْدِهِمْ أَفَتُهْلِكُنَا بِمَا فَعَلَ ٱلْمُبْطِلُونَ}

Sahih International (7:173): Or [lest] you say, "It was only that our fathers associated [others in worship] with Allah before, and we were but descendants after them. Then would You destroy us for what the falsifiers have done?"

Verse (13:38) - sūrat l-raʿd (The Thunder)
Arabic word 9: ... and offspring. ...

{وَلَقَدْ أَرْسَلْنَا رُسُلًا مِّن قَبْلِكَ وَجَعَلْنَا لَهُمْ أَزْوَٰجًا وَذُرِّيَّةً وَمَا كَانَ لِرَسُولٍ أَن يَأْتِىَ بِـَٔايَةٍ إِلَّا بِإِذْنِ ٱللَّهِ لِكُلِّ أَجَلٍ كِتَابٌ}

Sahih International (13:38): And We have already sent messengers before you and assigned to them wives and descendants. And it was not for a messenger to come with a sign except by permission of Allah. For every term is a decree.

faried wrote:

Zulia wrote:Mr faried dari bani Israelkah atau Yahudi?

Saya bagian dari bani israel sesuai yang dinyatakan dalam Alquran,

tetapi

bukan bagian dari Bangsa Israel yang beragama Yahudi.

Zulia wrote:
Maksud Mr Faried, Mr TM dan Juang juga dari Keturunan Israel kah? Mengapa mereka tak mengaku? Mereka ni engkar pada petunjuk yang dikatakan oleh Mr Faried. Mungkinkah penolakan mereka kerana mereka kurang ilmu atau tidak mendapat petunjuk macam Mr faried.

Juang wrote:

Zulia wrote:
Maksud Mr Faried, Mr TM dan Juang juga dari Keturunan Israel kah? Mengapa mereka tak mengaku? Mereka ni engkar pada petunjuk yang dikatakan oleh Mr Faried. Mungkinkah penolakan mereka kerana mereka kurang ilmu atau tidak mendapat petunjuk macam Mr faried.

Salam,

Kita daripada keturunan mana-mana pun, penentuan masuk syurga atau tidak bukannya berdasarkan salasilah itu. Nak mengaku macam mana kalau kita sendiri pun tidak pasti dan tiada bukti jalur keturunan kita daripada bani Israel itu. Hanya si penipu sahaja berani mengaku yang sesuatu yang dia tiada bukti.

silatgayung wrote:

Kita daripada keturunan mana-mana pun, penentuan masuk syurga atau tidak bukannya berdasarkan salasilah itu. Nak mengaku macam mana kalau kita sendiri pun tidak pasti dan tiada bukti jalur keturunan kita daripada bani Israel itu. Hanya si penipu sahaja berani mengaku yang sesuatu yang dia tiada bukti.

konpom tak baca Al-quran ni..... kah.... kah.... kah.......

Sesungguhnya orang-orang yang kafir dari Ahli Kitab dan orang-orang musyrik itu akan ditempatkan di dalam neraka Jahannam, kekalah mereka di dalamnya. Mereka itulah sejahat-jahat makhluk. {Al-Bayyinah 6}

tolokminda wrote:
Saya berpendapat:

Singular - Thurriyyata
Plural - Thurriyyati

Jika tuan perhati betul-betul ramai di kalangan penterjemah itu merujuk zuriat dalam 17:3 sebagai singular walaupun beberapa mempluralkannya.

tolokminda wrote:Jadi sehingga Tuhan membuka kebenaran yang kita perselisihkan sekarang biarlah saya percaya dengan kefahaman saya dan tuan dengan kefahaman tuan.

Juang wrote:

Dedat wrote:Ya ini benar. Sebenarnya Nama asal Israel ialah Yakub yg bererti "penipu". Allah tidak suka dengan nama Yakub kerana bermaksud penipu. Lalu nama Yakub ditukar kepada Israel.

Salam,

Inilah contoh ayat orang yang bercakap tanpa bukti. Bukankah yang bercakap tanpa bukti itulah yang penipu? Ada hati nak labelkan nama orang lain sebagai penipu, tetapi dia sendiri bercakap tanpa bukti. Apa punya manusia daa yang kuat menipu macam tu.

Hanafi wrote:

Juang wrote:

Dedat wrote:Ya ini benar. Sebenarnya Nama asal Israel ialah Yakub yg bererti "penipu". Allah tidak suka dengan nama Yakub kerana bermaksud penipu. Lalu nama Yakub ditukar kepada Israel.

Salam,

Inilah contoh ayat orang yang bercakap tanpa bukti. Bukankah yang bercakap tanpa bukti itulah yang penipu? Ada hati nak labelkan nama orang lain sebagai penipu, tetapi dia sendiri bercakap tanpa bukti. Apa punya manusia daa yang kuat menipu macam tu.

Aku nak bantu Dedat...awak baca dalam Alkitab dalam Kitab Kejadian 32:22-32. Jika awak tiada memiliki Alkitab, aku link kan Alkitab online di sini dan baca ayat ni Yehh..

Cari Tajuk dia "PERGUMULAN YAKUB DENGAN ALLAH"

http://alkitab.otak.info/index.php?hal=lihatPasal&injil=1&pasal=32

Al-Isra (The Journey by Night)

Waatayna moosa alkitaba wajaAAalnahu hudan libanee israeela alla tattakhithoo min doonee wakeelan

# 17:2 (Malay) "Dan Kami berikan kepada Musa kitab (Taurat) dan Kami jadikan kitab Taurat itu petunjuk bagi Bani Israel (dengan firman): ""Janganlah kamu mengambil penolong selain Aku,"

Thurriyyata man hamalna maAAa noohin innahu kana AAabdan shakooran

# 17:3 (Malay) (yaitu) anak cucu dari orang-orang yang Kami bawa bersama-sama Nuh. Sesungguhnya dia adalah hamba (Allah) yang banyak bersyukur.

Hanafi wrote:

Tetapi

merujuk kepada penjelasan Alquran 17:2-3, Bani Israel = anak cucu dari orang-orang yang Tuhan bawa bersama-sama Nuh.

Ketika terjadi banjir Nuh, orang yang selamat hanyalah yang berada di atas perahu Nuh yang kemudian berkembang menjadi populasi manusia sekarang.